Fender S10 - New Member

Instruments, mechanical issues, copedents, techniques, etc.

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Sam Troy
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Joined: 11 Apr 2020 5:07 pm
Location: New South Wales, Australia

Fender S10 - New Member

Post by Sam Troy »

Hi all,

I'm a new member, I've just started learning the Pedal Steel in the last couple months.

Pedal Steel Guitars are pretty hard to come by here in Australia but my long time want to learn this beautiful instrument spurred me on to find one.

I picked up - what I'm lead to believe is a Fender S10. Sho-Bud built early 70s model S/N: 01240

Image

I have a friend here in Sydney that plays some really beautiful steel. He gave me some pointers on his instrument and I quickly realised that my instrument wasn't just a little off in setup, It was way off!


Being new to the world of playing pedal steel, I wasn't going to blindly jump into making adjustments and changing the setup. I did a bunch of research, much of which I found through this forum - Thank you!

I learned how to make small adjustments to firstly get my pedal steel in tune and then to work out how the pedals and levers had been set up on the instrument.
This one has 3 pedals and 4 levers.

I persevered, trying to work out the intention for how this pedal steel had been set up. The owner before me never really got around the instrument and couldn't really shed any light on the matter.

The pedals were set up as you would expect in Emmons style although the action, stops, tuning were a long way out. The knee levers were a different story.

LKL and RKL were in the ball park of the "E raise" and "F# to G#" but the LKR lowers were way off and really sloppy.

The RKR was working on a couple strings (I don't remember now) and also very loose. I couldn't find any match anywhere for that setup - which would be fine if I knew what I was shooting for and I'm sure whoever had it set up in the first place had it set that way for good reason and it worked for them but this instrument was now sorely due for some maintenance.

I found that the screws mounting the LKR and RKR mechanisms had worn away the timber. I plugged and re-drilled the the mounting holes and everything came back together nice and solid.

After a lot of reading and trying to work out a good baseline to work from, I decided to use the copedent setup below:

Image

I adopted this table format from a post I found in the forum - thank you, I don't remember who posted it originally.

I evened out the action of the pedals and levers to where, in my limited experience, and at least for this instrument, feels like a medium to fast action with a medium weight in the feel.


My questions to you now would be:

1: Do you think that this copedant setup is practical for a beginner? When I eventually upgrade, I want to avoid having learned too many awkward habits

2: As a beginner, apart from obviously doing a lot of listening and playing, what are some things I should be practicing specifically? I already play regular 6 string guitar and have a reasonable knowledge of chord theory and harmony - I can always learn more though!


As a final note, thanks to anyone who has stayed with me this far! As I mentioned, I am also a guitar player and I am an audio engineer. I work out of a recording studio here in Sydney. I am aware there is already a wealth of knowledge and experience here but I would like to offer my own skills and experience to any of the folks here as well, in a kind of way to try and "pay it forward". So if you have any audio questions, comments or would like something recorded or mixed or to just talk music generally, just reach out, I'd be happy to get touch.


Cheers

Sam
Ron Pruter
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Post by Ron Pruter »

Sam, that's a great copedent. Totally professional. It could be all you need. Way down the road you may want a vertical lever L/K/V lowering the 5th and the 10th one half. Welcome to the endless world of PSG. Ron
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Sam Troy
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Location: New South Wales, Australia

Post by Sam Troy »

Ron Pruter wrote:Sam, that's a great copedent. Totally professional. It could be all you need. Way down the road you may want a vertical lever L/K/V lowering the 5th and the 10th one half. Welcome to the endless world of PSG. Ron
Thanks Ron!
Chris Reesor
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Post by Chris Reesor »

Hey Sam, welcome to the Forum and the fascinating world of pedal steel.

It looks like you have a pretty good start on a basic Emmons 3x4 setup there; as good a place to start as any, I think. If you have the feel stop on RKR working as it should there is a lifetimes worth of music in that 3x3.

I assume you meant to raise the 7th string to G# on RKL. If so that is good but raising the 2nd string to E works well with both F#'s up a whole step; that is quite a useful modern change.

30 or 40 years ago a lot of players raised both F# strings to G. You could give that a try too.

Another common modern use of that lever would be to raise the first string a half and lower the sixth G# to F#, splitting that to G with the B pedal by the extra rod method. That works best with a plain sixth string, and like the first option I mentioned requires one more pull rod.

Whichever way you go, enjoy the ride.

CR.
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Sam Troy
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Location: New South Wales, Australia

Post by Sam Troy »

Hey Chris, Thanks for the reply.

I believe I do have the feel stop on RKR working. I haven't really incorporated it into anything yet - early days.


My RKR is set to raise 1 and 7 a whole step - thanks good pick up!


I'll note those variations down, I may give them a go in the future when I get a hold of or make some spare parts.

What would you personally think the better setup for me to use would be? I'm still working my way around standard grips and 3 note voicings and basic melodies at this stage
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b0b
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Post by b0b »

Looks good, except for the typo on RKL.
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Sam Troy
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Post by Sam Troy »

Cheers b0b
Chris Reesor
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Post by Chris Reesor »

With the E raises and lowers and the second string to D you've plenty to keep you busy for a very long time.

All you need to do to try out the F# to G raises is back off the nylon tuners and perhaps adjust the knee lever stop for a shorter throw. Having that dom7 in the pedals down position is quite useful as is the minor third in the no pedal scales. It also allows you to harmonize lines in major and minor thirds on strings one and two without having to hit that feel stop accurately. Among other things.

Another change you might consider for that lever is the B half step lower. Its uses are not quite as intuitive as the other ones mentioned; not everyone uses it but some players consider it indispensable. It also works well as a split (with the A pedal, of course).

Making another pull rod is not terribly complex; unfortunately a nylon tuner is harder to fabricate and likely not available in your local music store, even in mighty Sydney (where I hung my hat for a year or so nearly 50 years ago and learned to drink beer ).

As for the other changes, just do some searches here; there have been numerous discussions of both. Don't worry too much about adding anything until you have a grip on the basics and can see some uses in the music you are playing.
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins
Sam Troy
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Joined: 11 Apr 2020 5:07 pm
Location: New South Wales, Australia

Post by Sam Troy »

Hey Chris,

I can certainly see what you mean with the different options, they make sense but further beyond what I can currently get comfortable under my hands and feet!

Sounds like good advice to me!


Thanks again
J R Rose
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Post by J R Rose »

Your going down the right road Sam. There is every thing you will ever need with that tuning. As time goes on and you progress you may find that you need one string to do a pull up or down and you can do that with that guitar. That tuning is pretty much Emmons but he lower the sixth string (G#) a half tone and did as you raised the first string both on the RKL. I see some pickers add a pull on the second string up to E I think. You can find that here on this wonderful Forum!!
But if you like Lloyd Green music you could learn to flip and slant your bar for some special things. He does that a lot. Good Luck on your journey and practice, practice and practice. I never was able to devote enough time to that and really wish I had. As an old man today I know what I missed when I was young. Just my two cents, Enjoy you learning and Keep on Picking. J.R. Rose. Keota, Oklahoma, U.S.A. Land of the Free.
NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose
Sam Troy
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Post by Sam Troy »

Thanks J.R. I sure will keep on picking
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

I just got one and need help identifying if all the parts are there and then how to put on the pedals and extra reeds/rods that came with it. I’m way too new to know what I’m doing -ā€˜does anyone know if a user manual or something like that exists for the S-10 or similar 3 pedal Sho Bud models? Thank you!

If any He wants to help reach out at mrlutton@gmail.com with thanks!
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Jerry Overstreet
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Post by Jerry Overstreet »

Congratulations and welcome.

Can you post a photo of your guitar? Is it a Sho~Bud or a Fender built by Sho~Bud and which model if so.

There were Mavericks in at least 2 body configurations and 2 models of Fender S-10s so a shot of your guitar will help us identify and suggest sources for parts.

You might want to open another thread about your guitar rather than tagging on to this older one.
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

It’s the all black S10 fender model - I do not know how the image upload is supposed to work but having trouble there - I can tell you it has all the same parts shown here and this is the model: https://reverb.com/item/84904143-1970-s ... eel-w-ohsc

Same lovely case too. I can tell it’s a great piece but one leg is broken (the part that screws in is stuck and broken off and I’m having trouble removing the piece that’s screwed in to replace the leg - I assume I can find one leg rather easily? The other put on would be to use some metal/wood powerful glue or epoxy to just reattach and hope it will be strong enough to unscrew as needed after that. Thoughts on a broken leg? The threads on another leg has pretty stripped threads so I may buy 2 new posts. Any sources for good/affordable parts or does anyone have spares for sale?

I have the 3 loose rods and the pedal piece to attach and then there’s tuning it, which can be tricky. I’m not sure what the 3 rods do or how to attach them or if they’re used with the pedals, etc. Just like the reverb post, the 3 rods that don’t look the same as the the reeds (is this the right term?) inside and already setup. His photos mimic exactly what I’ve got and I just wish I had a manual!

Thanks friends! Always looking for new fender lap/pedal steel stuff! I guy locally wants @900 for a lake placid blue champion - seems high to me, what do y’all think? It’s definitely 60s I think, Champion model but the finish looks pretty mint so it won’t leave my mind!
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

I’ve figured out most of it from images online, I just wish I knew a pro near Indy that could take a look and make sure it’s set up properly. I also had a spring fall out of the body when I was working - does anyone have idea where that spring might go? It may not be anything at all, it’s just a normal spring, nothing special like used for the rods/reeds (someone let me know the correct term if I’m not getting it right). But I got the pedals on and hooked the rods to them.

It looks like there are 3 different places you can place the pedal ā€œhookā€ inside the body and I just used the middle for all 3.

I wish I could easily attach photos here but it’s just about 1/2ā€ tall loose spring. The pedals don’t seem to do anything the way I’ve set it up but I have no idea how those tensions bars should be used or what makes the pedals work, or how to test them. I’ve got em hooked up as best I can tell but can’t tell any difference when just hitting open strings and trying the pedals. I may not understand their purpose..:

Thanks for all the help guys; really, I do appreciate it! I’m picking up a Fender triple 8 neck tomorrow from a guy in Ohio meeting me halfway. I love to spend money on Fender steel guitars (and pre cbs amps!)
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

Sorry newbie to terminology / what do you mean when you say ā€œ4 leversā€, just the legs, or should I have more than just the 3 pedals with an S10? In ve not figured out how the pedals works just yet and I had a normal 1/2ā€ or so spring fall out of the body and I’m not sure where it belongs, if anywhere. It’s not anything special like the springs for the rods inside, etc just a typical spring and I’ve no idea if it even goes in this thing: anyone know for sure?
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Jerry Overstreet
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Post by Jerry Overstreet »

Check with Tom Sosbe. I think he's familiar with the Indy club and can probably steer you to someone that can help. There are a bunch of steel players in the Indy vicinity.

Yes, that's what you need. Someone familiar with the pedal steel. They can advise you about the broken leg plug etc.

They may look similar but that guitar in the link is a student model Fender and different from the one in the original post.

These are pull and release guitar vs. the all pull like in the original. The content in this original post may not be relevant. That's why I suggested you open a new Topic.

The changer working parts of the 2 guitars are different.
Last edited by Jerry Overstreet on 9 Oct 2024 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

Not a problem. I’m good, I have a pedal steel friend here in indy, by the name of John Byrne. He may very well be a member here, best player I know around here that uses them regularly in gigs.
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

Hey there here is mine and a photo of the spring that fell out. I am not sure if it’s all hooked up properly, the pedals do affect certain notes/strings but I sure wish I had a user manual or something.

Any idea where the spring might have failed out, or if it may just be a random spring that does nothing? I’m not sure but it’s not like any other spring in the body, and it looks like a normal one, maybe it’s part of one of the legs?

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0fbJgjn ... 73IKin3GOg

Let me know if you can see photos here - I cannot upload using the website on my phone at all (not sure if that’s common but the upload and send option just never sends for me)

Thanks all!

PS I picked up an 8 string triple neck pedal steel from around 1956, with the red case. Not sure what the official name of this one is if anyone can tell me:
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0f7BM7d ... Z_WkR8q78Q
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Jerry Overstreet
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Post by Jerry Overstreet »

Photos are viewable. The spring in question goes on the stud behind one of the 2 slider clamps that hold the pedal bar to the legs.

It's the same as is on my Fender Artist Pro D10.

I'm not quite sure the model name of your triple 8. We have one of those same models in a double neck version which is called Dual Pro.

You have a beautiful sounding guitar with those trapezoidal pickups. Very nice axe.
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

Thank you so much!!
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

And… I dropped it. Now it’ll be hours before I find it again… I’m a mess! Lol
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

Found it, and put it behind the piece here but after a washer? Do I have that piece attached properly? See any problems? What does the spring do in there? I mean what’s the purpose?

If anyone happens to know of or has a link to the user manual I would be in forever debt. I’ve seen a few broken links but haven’t found it yet, I know it had to have a manual.

Forever in your debt,
Matt

Pics of pedal attachment: https://share.icloud.com/photos/001bIVB ... bHdQxcS4XQ
Matthew Lutton
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Post by Matthew Lutton »

I ask because the other side doesn’t have a spring either but I’m sure I can find one or make one that works.
Michael Lee Allen
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Post by Michael Lee Allen »

Your triple neck is called either a "Custom" or "Triple 8 Custom" depending on the catalog or price list. If the "blue" lap you refer to is the one from Fort Wayne in Indiana it is not a "Champion", it is a "Champ" and that is not an original finish. Student models like that were not offered in "custom colors". If you see one it is a refinished instrument. No matter what a Reverb seller may claim.
If your Fender PEDAL guitar has one knee lever it is a "pull-release" system near identical to a Sho-Bud Maverick and a Maverick manual will help you with it. If four knee levers it is an all-pull system and near identical to late model Sho-Bud pro steels. Both were made by Sho-Bud under contract to Fender with Fender providing the pickups and "ashtray" tuning pans.
MLA
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