Unique copedent design for guitarist adapting to psg

[Cam West]

I'm an old multi-instrumentalist with some physical issues just designing a layout for Ron Anderson to build me a guitar. I've arrived at a copedent I believe will allow me to most easily adapt my guitar and theory knowledge. It's contrary in some ways to what most players use, though the logic, I believe, directly applies to guitarists whose interest is chordal fluidity. Thought I'd share it with this very knowledgable group for feedback prior to my build submission. Here it is, and know that it is based on 6-string. with non-moveable low E A D G (for separate non-simultaneous bass motion): it is for the 3-pedal - 2-knee lever guitar 6-1 are tuned E G# E G# B E

P1 — 7th Control
Half: P1½ = I maj7
Full: P1full = I7

P2 — Minor Control
Half: P2½ = I–
Full: P2full = I–7

P3 — IV Control
Half: P3½ = IV
Full: P3full = IV–

LKL — Diminished / Half-Diminished
Half: LKL½ = –7b5
Full: LKLfull = °7

LKR — #5 / 6
Half: LKR½ = I#5
Full: LKRfull = I6

Combined Chord Combos
P1 + P2
P1½ + P2½ = I–Δ7
P2full = I–7

P1 + P3
P1½ + P3½ = IV°7
P1full + P3½ = IV7
P1½ + P3full = IV–Δ7
P1full + P3full = IV–7

LKL
LKL½ = –7b5
LKLfull = °7

LKR
LKR½ = I#5
LKR½ + P3½ = IV+
LKRfull = I6
LKRfull + P2½ = I–6
P1full + LKRfull = I 13th

[Sam Inglis]

Will all the pedals and levers have a feel stop at the halfway position? And do you plan to play with a volume pedal? The various P1+P3 options would seem to require both feet.

[Bill McCloskey]

I would say hitting all those half stops will be difficult, to say the least, let alone tuning them.

[Cam West]

I will hopefully get a feel for that, bearing in mind that it's just me in my studio. Perhaps getting the feel with my feet for the three half stops will be similar to learning the guitar neck to play without looking. Hope so.

[Bill McCloskey]

Not exactly the same thing. Playing a guitar without looking isn't all that difficult especially with frets to make sure you hit the proper note. Half stops are much more difficult. Trying to hit two half stops would be near impossible. I would rethink your plan if it was me.

[Tim Toberer]

First I want to say I love this type of stuff and the pedal steel is such a fun instrument to experiment with. Unfortunalely they are not built anymore with this type of experimentation in mind so it will probably be expensive. I think you are smart to ask for insight here, but I think many view this type of stuff with skepticism. I like the idea of where you are going with this and if you scour old posts, you will find this type of thing has been discussed at length so you might get some help there.

Will all the pedals and levers have a feel stop at the halfway position? And do you plan to play with a volume pedal? The various P1+P3 options would seem to require both feet.

This caught my attention as well. I think having half stops on all the pedals might be very tricky to use, and sounds difficult to build. What looks good on paper sometimes isn't really practical with this instrument.

Check out Jack Richards for some E6 ideas and also Zane Beck played an amazing E13. 6 strings is pretty tough with pedal steel. Especially with large intervals. Going with an E6 or E13 and 8 strings would open things up a lot without requiring so many pedal changes. It does require you to really know your grips. You might also consider just playing around with a lap steel tuned to open E (assuming you haven't done this). All that said, there is only one way to find out what will work for you so take all the advice with a grain of salt. If I had listened to naysayers I wouldn't have done anything and happy to say that my tuning works very well and is nothing like the standard copedants. Good Luck! Keep us posted on your progress.

Here are a few things that might give you some insight. Basil Henriques designed this copedant around A7 which is pretty logical for guitar players as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkDppor1hpA
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets ... Tuning.pdf

[Dennis Montgomery]

I have 2 Mullen half stop mechanisms, one at the usual spot for the right-knee-right half stop on string 2 common to Emmons E9 tuning. The other I put on a pedal change (specifically pedal 4 operates on string 4...fully down the pedal changes the E to D to get an E7 in open position but the half stop changes E to D# so I can get an EMaj7 in open position as well. It acts like a string 4 only change variation of the E lower knee lever so string 8 remains the root of the chord).

Anyway, my point is the Mullen half stop hardware works great on both pedals and knees. As far as the copedent described earlier, I'm not sure it's physically possible to put one on each half step change, but the thought of getting all those locked in by feel only seems nearly impossible...for me anyway

Doesn't mean it can't be done!

[Lane Gray]

First I want to say I love this type of stuff and the pedal steel is such a fun instrument to experiment with. Unfortunalely they are not built anymore with this type of experimentation in mind so it will probably be expensive.

Huh? Most modern pro models are easily modified, and if you're budget conscious, used MSA classics are plentiful, affordable, and easy to wrench on. And parts are available from multiple sources.

And several people are making 6 string pedal steels

[Tim Toberer]

First I want to say I love this type of stuff and the pedal steel is such a fun instrument to experiment with. Unfortunalely they are not built anymore with this type of experimentation in mind so it will probably be expensive.

Huh? Most modern pro models are easily modified, and if you're budget conscious, used MSA classics are plentiful, affordable, and easy to wrench on. And parts are available from multiple sources.

And several people are making 6 string pedal steels

Thanks Lane. This is a good point, especially about the MSA, which I am sure you know way more than I about. I will stand by my comment that they really aren't built for easy customization at least for the general player. Especially when you are talking about radical differences like half stops on all the pedals, but I am sure it could be done. Yes also about 6 string pedal steels, might want to look at the Jackson steels which are seemingly designed for standard guitar players who want to jump right into steel. There is Hudson also for 6 stringers.

[Sam Inglis]

I guess I am slightly doubtful about the OP's premise here. I also came to the pedal steel after having spent years playing conventional guitar. If I had to put the challenges involved in order of difficulty, adapting my guitar and theory knowledge wouldn't even be on the list.

What takes the real time and effort are the fundamental techniques: learning grips, blocking, bar control, intonation and use of the volume pedal. I believe many six-string guitarists also struggle with the transition to thumb and fingerpicks, though I didn't find that too bad personally.

[Ian Rae]

I agree with Sam. The pedal steel is a completely different instrument with zero transferable skills from 6-string, and must be approached as such.
A lot of excellent music was made with just two pedals and one lever, so I'd start there and learn the basics of picking and bar control.
You can't "adapt" to steel any more than you can adapt from flute to violin.

[J Fletcher]

I will jump on the bandwagon here and agree with Ian and Sam . A lot of years of thought and experimentation by the greats , Issacs , Emmons , Day , Green and many more , is reflected in the standard E9 tuning . No need to try and re-invent the wheel . Best of luck on your journey . Jerry

[Stew Crookes]

I suspect this would make a uniquely difficult to play steel, but offers a different take on a pedal steel guitar so it's certainly an interesting concept...

For me though, the time and effort that would be required to master such an instrument would probably be significantly more work than learning to apply the theory I already know to a different instrument

[John Ely]

Cam, I think you're getting good advice. Here are my thoughts:

If you're primarily looking to experiment with the changes you've described on your original post, go for it, man, and let us know how it works out.

But if you're starting out and want to be able to get some of the traditional sounds, that may have inspired you to take up PSG, I don't think you'll be able to get much of that with the copedent you've described.

However, all the music theory understanding you've developed over the years on guitar will stand you in good stead.

Let's say you're playing in the key of G. On regular guitar, you might use the F bar chord shape at the third fret.
On PSG, the equivalent would be to place your bar at the third fret; that's a G chord.

If you wanted to go to a C chord on guitar, you'd probably keep your barring finger at the third fret and simply flop your finger over to make the C chord shape.

On the PSG, you would accomplish the same thing by leaving your bar at the third fret and pressing the A and B pedals, which makes it a C chord.

You could then move that up to the fifth fret, still with your A and B pedals down, and you'd have a D chord, and hit the basics of a common I-IV-V progression.

If you wanted a ii minor chord, you could leave your bar at the third fret (a G chord) and press the B and C pedals and have an A minor. You could move THAT up to 5th fret and have the iii minor (Bm) chord there.

If you have your bar at the third fret ("G no pedals position"), you could engage what is sometimes called the E lever that lower your four and eight strings by a half tone, which would result in a G major 7 chord (which, if you're a theory guy, is the same as a Bm chord).

If your PSG bar is at the 3rd fret and you engage just your A pedal, you'll be playing an Em (the often-used relative minor of G).

What about a G7 chord? Well, think about how you play a G7 chord on guitar at 3rd fret, again using the basic F bar chord shape. On guitar, you would lift your pinky to 2nd string at the 6th fret to get that flat 7 sound. On PSG, you'd get the same sound by sliding the bar up to the 6th fret and engaging just the "F lever", the one that raises strings 4 and 8 by 1/2 step, and it's a G7 chord. If you engage both your a pedal and "F lever"at the sixth fret, you will hear that it's a G major chord rather than G7.

Many of the "traditional" steel guitar sounds are made by rocking on and off the A and B pedals at the "pedals down" positions. In the key of G, following the logic above, you could play a G chord at the 10th fret with A and B pedals down. I'm sure you'll be able to quickly hear some phrasing that happens by using the A and B pedals at the "pedals down" position. From here, you could move your bar back down to the eighth fret and be at the C (no pedals) position, the same as the eighth fret chord position on guitar.
Also at the 8 fret you can engage E lever (that lowers the E's 1/2 step) plus your B pedal, and have a D dom7 chord (actually D9 here).

You can move all of these "shapes" (these basic different pedal and lever combinations) up and down the fretboard on PSG, just as you do on standard guitar

So, by learning just these few pedal and lever combinations, you can find all of your diatonic chords AND be able to make some of the sounds that may have drawn you to PSG in the first place. I hope this all makes sense

Again, if you're wanting to experiment with PSG in the manner you described in your original post, go for it for sure.
Best,
John

[Cam West]

Thank you all for your knowledgable and considered opinions. It seems clear to me that the copedent I conceived of was just a mental exercise and doesn't have practical application except in my head. That's why I put it out to you. I think my best move, and I'm asking for your thoughts again - is to have Ron Anderson build me an s10 $1150 for a 2-pedal 1 knee plus $175 for another pedal or lever and standard e9 copedent and tuning. I am considering just tuning the low four strings (not attached to rods) to E A D and G for single line bass lines when I want to just do that, and just learn the grips for diatonic chords. A six string steel would have no resale vale or I'd go that way.

[Dave Grafe]

I love it when people pay attention to other people's advice I agree that to embark on the psg journey your basic starting point is with an Emmons copedant S10. 3 pedals (A,B,C)+2 knees (F+Eb) on the left and you're well on your way, if money is not tight go for two more knees on the right. Save the rest for desert.

FYI my college major was music theory but after 50+ years of fooling with this steely guitar I am still discovering pockets in the Emmons E9 and C6 copedants that I never would have conceived of on my own, and if I ever do get stuck there's always some forum folks here that know what I do not.

[Cam West]

Thanks, Dave. I'll do just that. Emmons copedent, etc. I have a sense that Ron's steels are excellent and an excellent value. I can't imagine doing better or even the same on the used steel market. I can see having great fun with this. I'd love to post some of my recordings but not sure that's welcomed, allowed, or doable on this sight. I play all instruments on everything. I too have a thorough knowledge of theory, which brings me great joy on a daily basis. I do like learning new instruments, having picked up the sax a few years back. Great experience playing a wind instrument, and so completely different from any other instrument I've played.

[Dave Grafe]

You can and are welcome to post links to music already hosted on other sites (YouTube, Spotify, etc.), the forum servers limit the size of attachments so direct upload isn't usually feasible. Welcome aboard!

[Cam West]

Thank you Dave. I'll do that.

[Rick Grieco]

Hi Cam...yes, Ron's steels are excellent, pro quality instruments that play and sound awesome! Plus, Ron is a great guy and an absolute pleasure to work with. He built me a 3x4 S10 two years ago and I love it more each time I play. You're making a great decision having him build you one...you won't regret it. Wishing you many years of happy steel playing! Enjoy!

[Lane Gray]

First I want to say I love this type of stuff and the pedal steel is such a fun instrument to experiment with. Unfortunalely they are not built anymore with this type of experimentation in mind so it will probably be expensive.

Huh? Most modern pro models are easily modified, and if you're budget conscious, used MSA classics are plentiful, affordable, and easy to wrench on. And parts are available from multiple sources.

And several people are making 6 string pedal steels

Thanks Lane. This is a good point, especially about the MSA, which I am sure you know way more than I about. I will stand by my comment that they really aren't built for easy customization at least for the general player. Especially when you are talking about radical differences like half stops on all the pedals, but I am sure it could be done. Yes also about 6 string pedal steels, might want to look at the Jackson steels which are seemingly designed for standard guitar players who want to jump right into steel. There is Hudson also for 6 stringers.

I've got a video on my YouTube channel about how to make one half-stop mechanism work on multiple levers, and it could apply to pedals, although for foot-driven changes, I'd probably go to a stouter spring
https://youtu.be/dU97wLjQoCk

[Colin Boutilier]

Thank you all for your knowledgable and considered opinions. It seems clear to me that the copedent I conceived of was just a mental exercise and doesn't have practical application except in my head. That's why I put it out to you. I think my best move, and I'm asking for your thoughts again - is to have Ron Anderson build me an s10 $1150 for a 2-pedal 1 knee plus $175 for another pedal or lever and standard e9 copedent and tuning. I am considering just tuning the low four strings (not attached to rods) to E A D and G for single line bass lines when I want to just do that, and just learn the grips for diatonic chords. A six string steel would have no resale vale or I'd go that way.

If bass lines are your fancy, I'd watch for a deal on a used S12. Either Extended E9 or Universal E9/B6 would give you oodles of low string tomfoolery with an off the shelf guitar.

[Richard Alderson]

Dear Cam - What kind of music do you want to play? Any particular guitarists or particular songs you want to sound like?

[Cam West]

Thinking maybe I should start with a lap steel, though I'm concerned about not being able to play slants in tune. That's what got me thinking about pedals.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Just a suggestion, Get a Mel Bay E9th 10 string Chord Chart, They are sold, Here on the forum, In instruction section, Or just Google it.
The Chord Chart shows the E9th tuning. Major, Minor, 7th, Diminish and Augmented chords. Pedals and knee levers to use and strings to pick.
Take time and compare your chart of pedals with Mel Bays Chord Chart.
Every thing you want, May already be figured out for you.
Or can be added to suite your style.

Good Luck in your Steel Journey, Happy Steelin.