6/9 tunings anyone?

[Tim Toberer]

I am thinking of trying this out, would be happy to hear some insight. Probably E6/9 or C6/9. E6/9 is an E Major pentatonic scale and a C# minor pentatonic scale. Maybe more useful, the C6/9 is a C major pentatonic and an A minor pentatonic. I think the benefits of this for single note playing are obvious, but it complicates chords a bit with more string skips.

[Michael Kiese]

I am thinking of trying this out, would be happy to hear some insight. Probably E6/9 or C6/9. E6/9 is an E Major pentatonic scale and a C# minor pentatonic scale. Maybe more useful, the C6/9 is a C major pentatonic and an A minor pentatonic. I think the benefits of this for single note playing are obvious, but it complicates chords a bit with more string skips.

Aloha Tim,

Buddy Emmons's C6 with a re-entrant High D already exists. You can consider that a C6/9 tuning. You might want to try it!

Doug Jernigan showed it to me.

Normally an 8 string C6 low to high is ACEGACEG.

But if you use the same gauge string on strings 1 and 2, then you can go back and forth from a D to a G. So on the top string, you can have the 9 or the more traditional 5.

So Buddy's C6 would look like this, low to high: ACEGACED.

Having the top string be a lower note than the 2nd string warps your brain at first, but you can get used to it after putting some vocabulary under your fingers.

That's my setup for 8 string C6. That re-entrant High D is good for single note improvisational lines that are more linear in nature, which breaks up the normal steel guitar improv vocabulary. I usually keep it as a High G to practice my Billy Hew Len stuff. But when I work on lessons with Doug, I change it to a high D.

Being able to go back and forth from the D to the High G gives you the best of both worlds. The High D gives you access to scalar lines. The High G yields other improv ideas as well as chords/slants, including a Major 7th chord. Billy Hew Len got a heck of a lot of mileage with his A6 with the 5th on top.

One of my favorite Hawaiian Steel players is Bernie Ka'ai Lewis. I transcribed some of Bernie's solos by ear, and Bernie uses C6 with a High G, and he gets some really nice mileage out of it with jazz language. He was from the big island, but also left Hawaii to study music conservatory on the mainland, so he knew his stuff. Bernie was the steel player for the band "The Polynesians", and you can hear Bernie play THROUGH changes with jazz language, which is rare territory back in his day. Heck, it's STILL rare territory even today. I really enjoy Bernie's playing, maybe even more than Jules Ah See's playing.

Check out the band "The Polynesians". Really nice stuff. They played tunes like Lullaby of Birdland, and even recorded "On a Coconut Island" with Louis Armstrong.

Bernie Ka'ai Lewis is a very unsung hero amongst the Hawaiian Steel players. His name almost never gets mentioned among the Hawaiian Steel Greats, but he did quite a lot of records with The Polynesians, so a lot of his playing was documented.

Anyways, when you hear Buddy Emmons's single note improv, you'll hear a lot of quick scalar ideas, and he's getting it with that reentrant D. That's also a secret to Doug's really fast lines. He's using a C6 with a High D.

Good single note improv ideas with the 5th on top can be heard from Bernie Ka'ai Lewis, and Billy Hew Len. Billy tended to do more arpeggiated and chordal ideas with that high 5th, that was more of his style.

[Steve Cunningham]

I’ve always liked the harmonic ambiguity of those chords, never thought to tune a steel to one. Thanks for the idea.

[Mike Neer]

I often lower the 1st E string string to D. I have a lot of recorded examples of it including McCoy Tyner’s Passion Dance. I find it to be great for playing single note solos and quartal chords. I couldn’t have played this song in straight C6. For 60s modal jazz there’s nothing better for me. By the way, I tuned this up to Db6/9, since I wanted to keep it in the key of F. This was on Sol Hoopii’s Rickenbacher B6.

https://youtu.be/02TQKlx2wUs?si=ao_meJMVrsNtVdzr

[David DeLoach]

I've used this 8 string C6/9 tuning before on the back neck of my D8 Stringmaster (with the front neck tuned to C6). Used the C6/9 tuning for single note soloing.

[Tim Toberer]

I am thinking of trying this out, would be happy to hear some insight. Probably E6/9 or C6/9. E6/9 is an E Major pentatonic scale and a C# minor pentatonic scale. Maybe more useful, the C6/9 is a C major pentatonic and an A minor pentatonic. I think the benefits of this for single note playing are obvious, but it complicates chords a bit with more string skips.

Aloha Tim,





That's my setup for 8 string C6. That re-entrant High D is good for single note improvisational lines that are more linear in nature, which breaks up the normal steel guitar improv vocabulary. I usually keep it as a High G to practice my Billy Hew Len stuff. But when I work on lessons with Doug, I change it to a high D.

Being able to go back and forth from the D to the High G gives you the best of both worlds. The High D gives you access to scalar lines. The High G yields other improv ideas as well as chords/slants, including a Major 7th chord. Billy Hew Len got a heck of a lot of mileage with his A6 with the 5th on top.

Thank you Michael. That is some really great insight. It is amazing how 1 note can change a tuning so dramatically.
The Polynesians are my all time favorite Hawaiian (I call it Hawaiian jazz) music and one of my all time favorites in general. Bernie's playing is sublime. Their other steel player Ernest Tavares is my idol for pedal steel guitar and I was inspired to take the leap into a diminished copedant by listening to him.

I am feeling like my pedal steel tuning might be missing something and this may be it. I have been playing my lap steel more lately (very liberating) and gone down the pentatonic rabbit hole so I thought it might be nice to have that missing note right under the fingers. It will be easier to experiment with lap steel tunings than pedal steel. B or Bb6/9 would be cool cause it would lower that high string a little.

My other favorite players use a 6/9 tuning also. Jack Richards played a pedal steel with 2 necks a 10 string E6/9 pedal neck and a 6 string plain neck tuned to a low E6/9. Best of both worlds I guess. Tom Morrell's tuning Is E13, but the top 8 strings are E6/9. Zane Becks top 7 strings spell E6/9 with a missing E in the lower octave like the Mcauliff E13.

I like the idea of having the 9th in the lower octave as well, but this probably means 10 strings which I am scared of.

Not sure if this is a can of worms I want to open, but it is hard to resist with this instrument!

[Tim Toberer]

I often lower the 1st E string string to D. I have a lot of recorded examples of it including McCoy Tyner’s Passion Dance. I find it to be great for playing single note solos and quartal chords. I couldn’t have played this song in straight C6. For 60s modal jazz there’s nothing better for me. By the way, I tuned this up to Db6/9, since I wanted to keep it in the key of F. This was on Sol Hoopii’s Rickenbacher B6.

https://youtu.be/02TQKlx2wUs?si=ao_meJMVrsNtVdzr

I really admire your playing Mike, and especially your ability to find a way to make a basic C6 (with slight changes) work in almost any circumstance.
I am a little worried about the quartal sound with a 6/9 tuning. I like it, but in small doses and this could be a real challenge.

[Michael Kiese]

Thank you Michael. That is some really great insight. It is amazing how 1 note can change a tuning so dramatically.
The Polynesians are my all time favorite Hawaiian (I call it Hawaiian jazz) music and one of my all time favorites in general. Bernie's playing is sublime. Their other steel player Ernest Tavares is my idol for pedal steel guitar and I was inspired to take the leap into a diminished copedant by listening to him.

I am feeling like my pedal steel tuning might be missing something and this may be it. I have been playing my lap steel more lately (very liberating) and gone down the pentatonic rabbit hole so I thought it might be nice to have that missing note right under the fingers. It will be easier to experiment with lap steel tunings than pedal steel. B or Bb6/9 would be cool cause it would lower that high string a little.

My other favorite players use a 6/9 tuning also. Jack Richards played a pedal steel with 2 necks a 10 string E6/9 pedal neck and a 6 string plain neck tuned to a low E6/9. Best of both worlds I guess. Tom Morrell's tuning Is E13, but the top 8 strings are E6/9. Zane Becks top 7 strings spell E6/9 with a missing E in the lower octave like the Mcauliff E13.

I like the idea of having the 9th in the lower octave as well, but this probably means 10 strings which I am scared of.

Not sure if this is a can of worms I want to open, but it is hard to resist with this instrument!

My pleasure, Tim! Happy to help!

When you hear Buddy play, and then guys like Doug Jernigan, and Steve Palousek, you start to hear that high D a lot. It's really flashy, especially when you do a flurry of notes.

Regarding having the 9th in the lower octave, I personally don't like the idea of having the 1, 2, 3, and 5 on adjacent strings in the lower end of the guitar for C6. That would mess up both your chords and single line improv. When doing single line solos/melodies, separation of notes is very imperative, especially at moderate and high tempos. Notes ringing and sustaining into one another is good for ballads and slow tempos, but I think that might sound muddier in the lower registers. That's just speculation on my part, to be fair. It might sound great.

There are a lot of good major pentatonic runs in eight string C6. Changing of positions helps separate the notes. But if they're all on one fret, they'll ring into one another. Just an observation.

Regarding the band, "The Polynesians," yes, that is most certainly Hawaiian Jazz. The more I go back and study history, the Hawaiian influence on American music was SO EARLY, that it was overlooked. There are even documented interviews with Son House on where he got the idea to play with a slide and he said "Oh playing guitar Hawaiian style?" lol. They cover that in the American Epic documentary series.

I was having a conversation with Lindy Fralin, and he's convinced that the Blacks started slide guitar. I politely told him that the Hawaiians did, and it's documented history. He was skeptical. lol. I didn't push further, haha. Just proves that people don't go far back enough in their American musical history. I don't know why the significant Hawaiian music influence is often overlooked, but the African American music influence garners the majority of the spotlight. I guess it just turned out that way. After all, there are much more Blacks on the mainland than Hawaiians, especially at the turn of the century. If you go back far enough, you see lots of evidence of cross pollination of musical ideas from Hawaiian musicians and Black musicians. Hawaiian musicians heavily toured the south in the early 1900's.

I have a hunch that the term "Swing" came from playing music in such a way that made Hula dancer's skirts swish back and forth, and that later translated to getting butts to swing on the dance floor in dance bands. Gotta make the music feel right. Swinging the rhythm caused butts to swing. Guys like watching women's butts swing. Makes sense to me. lol.

Also I have a hunch that the secondary dominant II7, V7, I, came from lapsteel guitar. A lot of early Jazz and Hawaiian music would have A7, D7, G for example. Later eras turned the A7 to an Am7. But if you look at how the steel is laid out, the II7 is just two frets up from home position on lap steel.

They're just hunches, but it makes sense to me.

Hawaiian music is Jazz. Jazz is Hawaiian music. There is also documented written music from musicians that played in the Hawaiian court in the mid 1850's where there's fiddles, banjos, guitars, and upright basses. It was the sound of bluegrass instrumentation almost 80 years before Bill Monroe debuted in 1940.

The historical record is the historical record. There are no historical records earlier than the Hawaiian music influence of chord progressions and instrumentation. It's just that those records were lost and forgotten by history.

I wouldn't have known any of this stuff, had I not decided to learn steel, and it really connected me back to my Cultural roots in Hawai'i, and I'm very happily surprised and proud of what I discovered.

Here's Episode 3 of American Epic, where they talk about Hawaiian music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To-buN4oRuM

Here's a recent Special from PBS Hawai'i:
https://youtu.be/7nZNeQYoQgs?si=9DhQVjmUcFE_OZAN

Also a GREAT book written by Jonathan Troutman, curator of music and musical instruments at the Smithsonian:
Kika Kila: How the Hawaiian Steel Guitar Changed the Sound of Modern Music
https://a.co/d/h7iu1lR

Anyways, happy practicing!

[Michael Kiese]

Thank you Michael. That is some really great insight. It is amazing how 1 note can change a tuning so dramatically.
The Polynesians are my all time favorite Hawaiian (I call it Hawaiian jazz) music and one of my all time favorites in general. Bernie's playing is sublime. Their other steel player Ernest Tavares is my idol for pedal steel guitar and I was inspired to take the leap into a diminished copedant by listening to him.

Aloha Tim,

You may already be aware, but here's a great article about the Tavares brothers and their contribution to American music:

https://www.pacific-strings.org/the-tavares-brothers

I think Freddy Tavares is credited as playing the iconic Steel Guitar gliss at the beginning of the Warner Bros Looney Tunes song.

Enjoy!

[Rick Aiello]

If you tune using Just Intonation, you can’t get a chord that contains the root, second, fifth and sixth completely beatless … that D is going to clash (I suspect that’s why JB left it out of his Diatonic tuning …)

Same issue with folks who use E13 tuning with a F# added ….

Most folks that use that tuning … and tune JI … tune the second (F#) to the fifth (B) and the sixth (C#) gets tuned to third (G#) ... And the player just avoids hitting the F#, B and C# ... together.

Or you could just tune up "Equal Temperament" ... ha, ha

[Tim Toberer]

Regarding having the 9th in the lower octave, I personally don't like the idea of having the 1, 2, 3, and 5 on adjacent strings in the lower end of the guitar for C6. That would mess up both your chords and single line improv. When doing single line solos/melodies, separation of notes is very imperative, especially at moderate and high tempos. Notes ringing and sustaining into one another is good for ballads and slow tempos, but I think that might sound muddier in the lower registers. That's just speculation on my part, to be fair. It might sound great.

There are a lot of good major pentatonic runs in eight string C6. Changing of positions helps separate the notes. But if they're all on one fret, they'll ring into one another. Just an observation.

This pretty much sums up my early attempt at a 10 string E13. I also lowered the D in the lower octave to C# for a symmetrical E6/9. I just couldn't manage all those strings. This is basically Tom Morrell's tuning so it is possible. The guitar I was playing had narrow string spacing like a pedal steel and I think that was part of the problem. I think this time I would build a guitar with 3/8 string spacing at the bridge and the nut. This is how Billy Robinson's guitar was built I believe. I believe he also used a C6 with D on top.

I also like the idea of a low 6/9 like Jack Richards. I could keep it 8 strings and make the scale length a little longer,

[Michael Kiese]

If you tune using Just Intonation, you can’t get a chord that contains the root, second, fifth and sixth completely beatless … that D is going to clash (I suspect that’s why JB left it out of his Diatonic tuning …)

Same issue with folks who use E13 tuning with a F# added ….

Most folks that use that tuning … and tune JI … tune the second (F#) to the fifth (B) and the sixth (C#) gets tuned to third (G#) ... And the player just avoids hitting the F#, B and C# ... together.

Or you could just tune up "Equal Temperament" ... ha, ha

Just my opinion, but a great song performed well doesn't need to be perfectly in tune. It just needs to be close enough where 90% of the audience doesn't notice.

I mean, nobody listens to a properly tuned piano and goes "that sounds horrible, I can hear beats". Most people don't even notice the beats.

When choirs and symphonies perform, they're all constantly matching each other by ear. It's not perfectly in tune with a tuner, but it still sounds good because every human is playing one note at a time, and each person is adjusting to one another. That's as close to real world Just Intonation as we can get.

Actually purposefully creating beats can be part of the music like in Ethno Balkan music. They'll have a choir sing in unison, but some of the singers are purposefully singing a couple of cents off from the others. It's an eerie, spooky, and cool sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVqrW-f ... rt_radio=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqVpIbm ... rt_radio=1

I've heard recordings of Jerry, and he's slightly out of tune, and he printed the record. lol. Listen to Silent Night on his Christmas in Hawai'i album. Not in tune, but Jerry had the musical idea to play the melody in all harmonics. Great idea, poor execution. It's out of tune. Some notes are sharp, some are flat. Any symphonic musician would cringe at the first minute of that track. But symphonic musicians are amongst the 10% of people who would notice.

I personally would not have released that Silent Night track because it's so out of tune. But Jerry deemed it worthy to print. Maybe execution of the musical idea was more important to him than intonation. Maybe he didn't hear how out of tune the harmonics were. Who knows?

[Michael Kiese]

This pretty much sums up my early attempt at a 10 string E13. I also lowered the D in the lower octave to C# for a symmetrical E6/9. I just couldn't manage all those strings. This is basically Tom Morrell's tuning so it is possible. The guitar I was playing had narrow string spacing like a pedal steel and I think that was part of the problem. I think this time I would build a guitar with 3/8 string spacing at the bridge and the nut. This is how Billy Robinson's guitar was built I believe. I believe he also used a C6 with D on top.

I also like the idea of a low 6/9 like Jack Richards. I could keep it 8 strings and make the scale length a little longer,

Along that same train of thought...

The reason for the nomenclature of 9, 11, 13...not 2, 4, and 6...is because they exist in the next higher octave. Those notes are called extensions for a reason: they exist at the upper extent of the chord.

If you pressed the sustain pedal down on a piano, and played a C major scale, it'll all sound like mud because every note is right next to each other.

But if you pressed the sustain pedal down on a piano and played every other white key starting on C, it'll sound nice. You can even get away with playing some of the black keys if they're an octave, or two, or three higher than the fundamental bass note.

To me, the addition of a low 2 on home row should present the opportunity for a ii minor chord. With a 1, 2, 3, 5 on adjacent strings, if you did a forward slant with the 2 as the root, you would indeed get a root position ii minor triad, which could be handy. But that is at the trade off of your grips and single line improv.

All that being said, there are no rules.

For me, I just prefer to get my ii minor chord in regular C6 by playing a IV chord over a ii bass note. That gives you a ii min7.

Any IV chord is also a potential iimin7 chord:
ex) in the key of C, the IV chord is F (F, A, C). If you put a D bass note under that, you get D, F, A, C, which is a D minor 7.

I arrived at C6 as my universal tuning. I prefer to get as much as I can on 6 strings. But with my 8 string C6, I go from D to G on the 1st string. It works for me. Keeping it simple.

I noticed that Doug Jernigan takes his blistering solos all on the C6 neck with the High D, and he said Buddy showed him that. I also noticed that Doug can take the same blistering solos on straight steel, so I asked Doug if Buddy would use any pedals on the C6 neck when improvising his lines. Doug said that Buddy could get all his single note improv without pedals. If he used pedals during a solo, it was to play chords on C6.

So right then and there, that's the road I decided to take.

I just want to challenge myself to do as much as possible on Straight Steel. I don't want to mess around with lugging around a PSG, lol. Too heavy, too expensive, and too many mechanical and tuning issues.

[Rick Aiello]

“Just my opinion, but a great song performed well doesn't need to be perfectly in tune. It just needs to be close enough where 90% of the audience doesn't notice.

I mean, nobody listens to a properly tuned piano and goes "that sounds horrible, I can hear beats". Most people don't even notice the beats.“

I agree …. But these notes are way off if strict JI is applied to all strings … in the E13/9 tuning for example :

Because the B is already +2 cents and because its the 5th of E... so (+2) + (+2) = +4 ... exactly where it needs to be to fit in with the root E overtone series ...

So far so good ...

The problem is ... F# is the fourth of C# ... so if you tune your F# to the C # ... it will needs to be -2 cents flat of C# ... 4ths need to be - 2 cents flat of their root to fit in with its overtone series.

Since C# is already the sixth of E (-16 cents flat) ... that would put the F# ... -18 cents flat of its ET value.

There's the problem ... to get F# to "fit in" the key of E and agree with E's overtone series and the fifth B ... it needs to be +4 cents sharp.

But to "fit in" with the C# in this particular tuning ... it would have to be -18 cents flat.

Strumming E, F#, B and C# will produce a mess of nasty beats that will be clearly audible to all.

There are tons of folks that use the second,
fifth and sixth successfully … but more than just audiophiles will hear it if those strings are played simultaneously. Definitely not a “stum” tuning

[Michael Kiese]

Hey Rick,

You ever seen a Yamaha Harmony Director HD 200?

They're a great tool meant to be used by Band Directors to teach their students about intonation and temperaments.

This is THE BEST and most concise video demonstrating Equal Temperament vs. Just Intonation, and it's only 2 mins long.

https://youtu.be/Yqa2Hbb_eIs?si=odTKa1Ch-t_32ae1

Ostensibly, this Yamaha Harmony Director could be used as a great tool to quickly check tuning temperaments for steel.

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha Rick,

“Just my opinion, but a great song performed well doesn't need to be perfectly in tune. It just needs to be close enough where 90% of the audience doesn't notice.

I mean, nobody listens to a properly tuned piano and goes "that sounds horrible, I can hear beats". Most people don't even notice the beats.“

I agree …. But these notes are way off if strict JI is applied to all strings … in the E13/9 tuning for example :

Because the B is already +2 cents and because its the 5th of E... so (+2) + (+2) = +4 ... exactly where it needs to be to fit in with the root E overtone series ...

So far so good ...

I think one thing you may be missing is that since E13/9 is a dominant tuning, you need to think of it as the V7 chord of A major. So you should ACTUALLY tune an E dominant tuning to Just Intonation of A major. That's what makes the most sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to me to Just Intonate an E dominant tuning to the key of E major. If you did that, you'd be intonating an E dominant chord using the JI for a B dominant chord.

The problem is ... F# is the fourth of C# ... so if you tune your F# to the C # ... it will needs to be -2 cents flat of C# ... 4ths need to be - 2 cents flat of their root to fit in with its overtone series.

Since C# is already the sixth of E (-16 cents flat) ... that would put the F# ... -18 cents flat of its ET value.

There's the problem ... to get F# to "fit in" the key of E and agree with E's overtone series and the fifth B ... it needs to be +4 cents sharp.

There you go, you're NOT in the key of E. That's the misconception. An E9/13 chord is a dominant chord therefore it is in the E mixolydian mode, which is a mode of the key of A major.

But to "fit in" with the C# in this particular tuning ... it would have to be -18 cents flat.

Strumming E, F#, B and C# will produce a mess of nasty beats that will be clearly audible to all.

There are tons of folks that use the second,
fifth and sixth successfully … but more than just audiophiles will hear it if those strings are played simultaneously. Definitely not a “stum” tuning

Right, definitely not a strum tuning, we agree on that. lol.

I didn't think any further than this, nor did I test it. Perhaps if you ran the numbers and intonated that E9/13 tuning using JI A major, maybe the ratios would be closer?

[Mike Neer]

Also I have a hunch that the secondary dominant II7, V7, I, came from lapsteel guitar. A lot of early Jazz and Hawaiian music would have A7, D7, G for example. Later eras turned the A7 to an Am7. But if you look at how the steel is laid out, the II7 is just two frets up from home position on lap steel.

Mike, that’s all classical music based. Look no further than Liszt’s Liebestraum for a perfect example of running through the cycle, but Beethoven and others used it quite a bit.

[Sonny Jenkins]

I am thinking of trying this out, would be happy to hear some insight. Probably E6/9 or C6/9. E6/9 is an E Major pentatonic scale and a C# minor pentatonic scale. Maybe more useful, the C6/9 is a C major pentatonic and an A minor pentatonic. I think the benefits of this for single note playing are obvious, but it complicates chords a bit with more string skips.

Aloha Tim,

Buddy Emmons's C6 with a re-entrant High D already exists. You can consider that a C6/9 tuning. You might want to try it!

Doug Jernigan showed it to me.

Normally an 8 string C6 low to high is ACEGACEG.

But if you use the same gauge string on strings 1 and 2, then you can go back and forth from a D to a G. So on the top string, you can have the 9 or the more traditional 5.

So Buddy's C6 would look like this, low to high: ACEGACED.

Having the top string be a lower note than the 2nd string warps your brain at first, but you can get used to it after putting some vocabulary under your fingers.

That's my setup for 8 string C6. That re-entrant High D is good for single note improvisational lines that are more linear in nature, which breaks up the normal steel guitar improv vocabulary. I usually keep it as a High G to practice my Billy Hew Len stuff. But when I work on lessons with Doug, I change it to a high D.

Being able to go back and forth from the D to the High G gives you the best of both worlds. The High D gives you access to scalar lines. The High G yields other improv ideas as well as chords/slants, including a Major 7th chord. Billy Hew Len got a heck of a lot of mileage with his A6 with the 5th on top.

One of my favorite Hawaiian Steel players is Bernie Ka'ai Lewis. I transcribed some of Bernie's solos by ear, and Bernie uses C6 with a High G, and he gets some really nice mileage out of it with jazz language. He was from the big island, but also left Hawaii to study music conservatory on the mainland, so he knew his stuff. Bernie was the steel player for the band "The Polynesians", and you can hear Bernie play THROUGH changes with jazz language, which is rare territory back in his day. Heck, it's STILL rare territory even today. I really enjoy Bernie's playing, maybe even more than Jules Ah See's playing.

Check out the band "The Polynesians". Really nice stuff. They played tunes like Lullaby of Birdland, and even recorded "On a Coconut Island" with Louis Armstrong.

Bernie Ka'ai Lewis is a very unsung hero amongst the Hawaiian Steel players. His name almost never gets mentioned among the Hawaiian Steel Greats, but he did quite a lot of records with The Polynesians, so a lot of his playing was documented.

Anyways, when you hear Buddy Emmons's single note improv, you'll hear a lot of quick scalar ideas, and he's getting it with that reentrant D. That's also a secret to Doug's really fast lines. He's using a C6 with a High D.

Good single note improv ideas with the 5th on top can be heard from Bernie Ka'ai Lewis, and Billy Hew Len. Billy tended to do more arpeggiated and chordal ideas with that high 5th, that was more of his style.

I heard somewhere that Buddy, after always playing traditional C6, saw how useful the added 9 was on E9 (F# on top) he put it on back neck. Jimmy Day stayed with 5 on top

[Rick Aiello]

Aloha Mike

I understand your position on the E13 being treated as a dominant 7 chord in the key of A.

E Tonal

E 0
F# +4
G# -14
A. -2
B +2
C# -16

A Tonal

A. 0
B. +4
C# -14
D. -2
E. +2
F# -16

In the key of A … to be beatless

F# needs to be +2 cents sharp relative to B
F# needs to be -2 cents flat relative to C#

If the note A is the tonal center.

F# is -12 cents flat relative to B
F# is +2 cents sharp relative to C#

Better but no cigar … you’re not going to be beatless with that grouping of strings no matter what your center is.

[Michael Kiese]

Also I have a hunch that the secondary dominant II7, V7, I, came from lapsteel guitar. A lot of early Jazz and Hawaiian music would have A7, D7, G for example. Later eras turned the A7 to an Am7. But if you look at how the steel is laid out, the II7 is just two frets up from home position on lap steel.

Mike, that’s all classical music based. Look no further than Liszt’s Liebestraum for a perfect example of running through the cycle, but Beethoven and others used it quite a bit.

Hey Mike, I recognize the melody to Libestraum.

I listened through the piano music while reading the score (public domain, yes!).

Actually found this musescore link, which is very handy to follow along: https://musescore.com/classicman/liszt-s-541-no-3

Interesting how it changes keys a lot. Goes from Ab, to D#, to C, and back to Ab at measure 50.

Right at measure 50 is a Bb7, so I think that's what you're referring to. But the next chord is a Fminor over Eb Bass. It kinda resolves to an Eb power chord.

It's kinda close to a II7, V7 sound. But it doesn't have that distinctive pull of the II7 to V7 sound. The major 3rd and the b7 of the II7 become the b7 and major 3rd of the V7 chord, but they invert. It's just a chromatic movement down, which really pulls my ear to that distinct sound of that cadence.

I do, however, LOVE the Bb minor chord scales happening over that big V bass (Eb) at measure 56. That's worth studying and applying. It's a very interesting way to pedal a low V, and play ii minor chord scales over it. Great stuff right there!

I'm always open to learn something new. If you do find a II7, V7 sound in classical music, I'd be very open to hearing it because I'm just not familar with any examples.

Btw, Libestraum was published in 1850, so it's a relatively young piece amongst classical repertoire. I always like knowing when a piece was written for historical context.

[Michael Kiese]

In the key of A … to be beatless

F# needs to be +2 cents sharp relative to B
F# needs to be -2 cents flat relative to C#

If the note A is the tonal center.

F# is -12 cents flat relative to B
F# is +2 cents sharp relative to C#

Better but no cigar … you’re not going to be beatless with that grouping of strings no matter what your center is.

Aloha Rick,

I'm just arm chairing it and not doing the math, or referencing charts.

I just think of JI in simple terms:

Ratios in C major for example
1 (Tonic),C,1/1
2 (Supertonic),D,9/8
3 (Mediant),E,5/4
4 (Subdominant),F,4/3
5 (Dominant),G,3/2
6 (Submediant),A,5/3
7 (Leading tone),B,15/8
8 (Octave),C,2/1

If A is 440Hz, then the octave is 880Hz. E would be 440 x (3/2) = 660 Hz

I don't think deviations in Cents from Equal Temperament is helpful. In Equal Temperament, a semitone is 100 cents. In Just Intonation, the distance between semitones vary...could be more than 100 cents, could be less.

Cents are confusing because they are not of equal value between ET and JI. It's kinda like comparing ºF to ºC. You have to know that 1 ºC is 5/9 the value of 1 ºF, and then you have to deal with the fact that water freezes a 32º F and 0ºC. lol.

Therefore, a cent in ET is not the same cent in JI. Just like a degree in Fahrenheit is not a degree in Celcius.

Going off topic a bit, I sent an email to John Ely asking him why he notates pitches in midi values instead of Hz. He gave his reason, but it didn't make sense to me. I'd rather just deal in Hz so I can compare apples to apple. SI units exist for a reason. Midi is just another language filter that creates another translational step.

Also, "A" is movable. A doesn't have to be 440 Hz. It can be 441, 444, or 438. Basically, you set A to whatever you want, and everything around it moves accordingly. Handl's tuning fork was measured at 422.5 Hz. So to perform Handl's music to be period correct, the orchestra has to detune quite a lot.

All that said, +/- 2 cents is WELL within the margin of error for most people's ears, including musicians.

The just noticeable difference (JND) for pitch in human hearing, which represents the smallest change in frequency that can typically be detected, is about 5 cents for the average person when comparing successive tones in a controlled lab. For the average joe schmoe in a bar, it's probably a lot more than 5 cents.

Most steel players are likely much more than 2 cents off just from the proper placement of their straight bar. lol.

Everything in music has an acceptable margin of error. That margin gets a lot smaller when you play with good musicians.

I mean, in the end, you're right, the chord won't be beatless, but I don't think any chord ever played is perfectly beatless.

[Twayn Williams]

I have a hunch that the term "Swing" came from playing music in such a way that made Hula dancer's skirts swish back and forth, and that later translated to getting butts to swing on the dance floor in dance bands. Gotta make the music feel right. Swinging the rhythm caused butts to swing. Guys like watching women's butts swing. Makes sense to me. lol.

Also I have a hunch that the secondary dominant II7, V7, I, came from lapsteel guitar. A lot of early Jazz and Hawaiian music would have A7, D7, G for example. Later eras turned the A7 to an Am7. But if you look at how the steel is laid out, the II7 is just two frets up from home position on lap steel.

Swing developed from Rag Time. Swing eights have been around forever, but Swing proper is African American in origin. I don't hear any Hawaiian influence at all. Sure, folks like Sol Hoopii played swing, but that was the pop music of the day, so not surprising.

And secondary dominants, i.e. V/V are Baroque in origin. Way before the invention of steel guitar.

Some quick resources (by no means definitive, just a starting point):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_music
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord

[Twayn Williams]

The reason for the nomenclature of 9, 11, 13...not 2, 4, and 6...is because they exist in the next higher octave. Those notes are called extensions for a reason: they exist at the upper extent of the chord.

Just a quick addendum: 9th, 11th and 13th require the presence (or implication) of the 7th.

[Mike Neer]

It's kinda close to a II7, V7 sound. But it doesn't have that distinctive pull of the II7 to V7 sound. The major 3rd and the b7 of the II7 become the b7 and major 3rd of the V7 chord, but they invert. It's just a chromatic movement down, which really pulls my ear to that distinct sound of that cadence.

Mike, right from the first measures of the tune, the changes cycle Ab - C7 - F7 - Bb7 - Eb7 - Ab, same as the changes in Charleston and Five Foot Two, Eyes of Blue but composed about 75 years earlier. It’s crazy but Paul Bley always said that jazz was behind classical music by about 75 years, and dang if he wasn’t right again. Lol

[Michael Kiese]

Swing developed from Rag Time. Swing eights have been around forever, but Swing proper is African American in origin. I don't hear any Hawaiian influence at all. Sure, folks like Sol Hoopii played swing, but that was the pop music of the day, so not surprising.

And secondary dominants, i.e. V/V are Baroque in origin. Way before the invention of steel guitar.

Some quick resources (by no means definitive, just a starting point):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_music
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord

Aloha Twayn,

To be clear, my intention is to shine light on Hawaiian music's profound influence on American music. I fully acknowledge African American music's influence on American music.

The untold story as of yet is the cross pollination of Hawaiian music and African American music. A lot of that credit went to African American music.

Hawaiian music DEFINITELY swings, and it goes as far back as the mid 1800's. Also, what non Hawaiians consider "Hawaiian music" and what people from Hawaii consider "Hawaiian music" are 2 different things.

Many Hawaiian musicians started touring the mainland US starting from the 1890's through the end of the roaring 20's. Yes, Ragtime was popular at that time. That said, Hawaiian music's golden era occurred at the same time. Hawaiian music became popular worldwide. The rise of Ragtime with Scott Joplin's Maple Leaf Rag release in 1899 coincides with the Hawaiian musicians touring the US mainland en masse. Cross pollination was inevitable.

When you listen to early recordings and piano rolls of Scott Joplin's Maple Leaf rag in 1899, it's performed with a straight feel. That's how most music listeners would have heard ragtime interpreted. I suppose one could argue that elements of swing were there, but you'd have to really stretch that argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMAtL7n_-rc

But what caused ragtime to start to REALLY swing? I'm willing to bet the Hawaiians had influence on that. So much of the contribution of Hawaiian music has been forgotten.

Growing up in Hawaii, I was surrounded with Polynesian rhythms. Hawaiian, Samoan, Tahitian, Fijian. Polynesian Rhythms SWING. They make you get up and want to dance, and the butts start swinging.

I'm willing to put myself out there and say the addition of Hawaiian music and hula dancers may very well have influenced ragtime to swing. This is largely unexplored territory by many music historians and academics. To be transparent, it's a hunch, but all the historical bread crumbs are there.

The rise of Ragtime and Hawaiian music occurred at the same time. It's impossible to give credit to only to one, and not the other. Arguably, Hawaiian music from 1900-1930 was more popular than ragtime.

Much of the common modern narrative gives African American music the lion's share of the credit for shaping American music. So that has been the common acceptance for many years.

That said, after reading Jonathan Troutman's book "Kika Kila: How the Hawaiian Steel Guitar Changed the Sound of Modern Music", and watching a few PBS documentaries, I became aware of the sprouting of a less known thread of Hawaiian music history. Very little light shined on that sprout, so it didn't grow into mass consciousness.

The truth of the matter is that there was A LOT of cross pollination between Hawaiian musicians and Black musicians in the south, as Hawaiian Bands extensively toured the US Mainland during the early turn of the century. We know this from tour records, and records of first hand accounts.

A lot of that information has been lost to antiquity, and has only recently begun to return to the light.

It makes sense because the Hawaiian influence happened so early on, and there are far more Blacks and Whites than Hawaiians in number, so the knowledge and history of the significant contributions Hawaiians made were drowned out.

Even being born and raised in Hawai'i, I was unaware of the contribution and influence Hawaiian music had on modern music until recently.

I'll definitely look into the utilization of secondary dominants in Baroque music. Nothing that I've listened to in the classical music genre has that quintessential cadence of II7, V7, I. But I'm always interested in learning something new. Do you have any pieces that I can analyze? The great thing about the classical genre is is that all the music is in the public domain, and is pretty much widely available.

https://www.amazon.com/Kika-Kila-Hawaii ... 122&sr=8-1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To-buN4oRuM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axoaPXgX_ow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nZNeQYoQgs

Enjoy!